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Post by nofavorites on Sept 19, 2014 9:10:47 GMT -6
I wish the league would keep track of plus/minus stats. Its really simple and is great statistic to confirm a players two-way game. They usually have enough help in the scorekeepers box. If not it would not be hard to get 1 or 2 volunteers at home games to keep track. You can talk all you want about a player that puts up 50-60 points a year, but if his plus/ minus is not very good are you getting a fare return. Its also a great stat for evaluating defensemen. Anyone have any thoughts.
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Post by flinflon123 on Sept 19, 2014 21:52:30 GMT -6
1 or 2 volunteers isn't going to track +/-. I believe the chl uses game tape and stat trackers to track the +/- stats.
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Post by stupendousman on Sept 20, 2014 17:10:59 GMT -6
I wish the league would keep track of plus/minus stats. Its really simple and is great statistic to confirm a players two-way game. They usually have enough help in the scorekeepers box. If not it would not be hard to get 1 or 2 volunteers at home games to keep track. You can talk all you want about a player that puts up 50-60 points a year, but if his plus/ minus is not very good are you getting a fare return. Its also a great stat for evaluating defensemen. Anyone have any thoughts. I would be very surprised if most SJHL coaches weren't already tracking this. Scoring chance +/- (or some variation of it) is also likely already being tracked. But it's work intensive and there's no guarantee every team is doing it, so I can't imagine the coaches that are tracking this stuff would want to give up that edge by agreeing to make those stats public. But if the SJHL DID publicize plus/minus, the raw goals for/goals against data for each player would also be helpful because it could serve as a decent substitute for ice-time figures (which the SJHL will never track).
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Post by flinflon123 on Sept 20, 2014 19:16:19 GMT -6
I'm not sure I understand the correlation between toi and +/-? Any explanation to that?
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Post by swkot on Sept 20, 2014 19:36:57 GMT -6
His point wasn't that +/- and time on ice directly correlate but that total number of the goals for and goals against would be somewhat indicative of the amount of ice time a player is seeing. The more you are on ice, the more goals you will be on for (both for and against).
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Post by flinflon123 on Sept 20, 2014 23:06:11 GMT -6
Ya that is called your +/- in my world. I am missing something, you might need to slow it down.
Goals for and against (individually) is +/-
Toi is the amount of time player is on ice.
In the NHL all the way down to the WHL it's pretty simple to determine the players effectiveness via +/-, as usually the next box over is the TOI.
This is why Ovi is regarded as one of the worst players defensively in the game of hockey. 51 goals and a minus 35! I don't have his TOI off hand, but it was a lot.
But I regress, back to the point here. What am I missing?
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Post by flinflon123 on Sept 20, 2014 23:08:55 GMT -6
I might have talked this through in my head, raw goals for/against would include PP and PK, henceforth giving indication to a players estimated TOI? Yes?
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Post by stupendousman on Sept 21, 2014 0:29:15 GMT -6
I might have talked this through in my head, raw goals for/against would include PP and PK, henceforth giving indication to a players estimated TOI? Yes? You got it. But it's more about seeing how a given player ranks on his team (how much his coach trusts him) as opposed to coming up with an actual ice time estimate.
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Post by swkot on Sept 21, 2014 9:10:19 GMT -6
Are PP/PK goals included in +/- stats at higher levels? Any time I did stats in minor hockey +/- was strictly based on even strength.
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Post by stupendousman on Sept 21, 2014 9:50:58 GMT -6
Are PP/PK goals included in +/- stats at higher levels? Any time I did stats in minor hockey +/- was strictly based on even strength. That's essentially correct. If I'm not mistaken, I believe shorthanded goals are included in the Total Goals For/Against categories at the NHL level -- but are not separated from even-strength goals for some reason. Power Play Goals For/Against are also counted so that they're not included in the official plus/minus stat. What I was getting at is if you just use the TGF/TGA categories, you can get a rough estimation of player usage for a given player on a given team.
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Post by nofavorites on Sept 21, 2014 13:43:40 GMT -6
I believe your plus/minus statistics can be broken down as follows. Teams playing five on five, four on four, three on three: players on the ice get a plus for team that scores and players on the ice a minus when scored against. When a team is on a power play and the team on the penalty kill scores a shorthanded goal the players on the ice for the team on the power play (scored against) get a minus.
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Post by flinflon123 on Sept 21, 2014 20:50:28 GMT -6
You know I've always wondered, in the nhl, are there people sitting in the stands with stop watches? How do they track TOI? They would need at least 20 guys wouldn't they?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2014 20:58:26 GMT -6
Just ask the head coaches for the +/-. they know who is on the ice for a goal against and who was out there when their team scores. I am pretty sure most teams track that stat in house. I know we used to.
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Post by boomer66 on Sept 22, 2014 17:21:04 GMT -6
+/- are also misleading stats as some players are always in the tough to play minutes, like against the top line of the other team and only used in a shut down role. If you are never exposed to the offensive side it is hard to be a + player. This is expecially true in Bantam, midget and junior hockey where players start to play more definitive roles. The stats are there but.... JMO
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Post by nofavorites on Sept 22, 2014 21:34:38 GMT -6
depends how you want use the statistics to evaluate players. Some players play well together and others do not. by tracking this it is greatly beneficial for defensemen and center men. tracking this can greatly determine line combinations and match-ups. you may notice that you switched line mates with just one player being moved and the +/- for the whole line goes to $#@@*. it also tells you some adjustments that need to happen especially if you have a center man than is very good in the face off circle.
bombers get calladine back, watch out for this team the puzzles are coming together.
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