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Post by swkot on Mar 30, 2015 19:08:34 GMT -6
I can guarantee that the overall interest from player's parents for ANY type of scholarship is higher than 20% as there is real life after hockey to consider. Well I feel like that is a given. Most parents would want to see their children receive free or partially paid schooling. But going by statistics the number of people pursuing university education isn't a whole lot higher than 20%. Aside from those who receive scholarships or go the CIS route I don't know of many Mils players who have pursued University. Seems like lots are doing well in trades though. Beyond that I'm not sure many parents are able to exert much control over 18+ year olds educational or work related future unless they are opening up their cheque book.
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Post by stupendousman on Mar 30, 2015 23:50:19 GMT -6
Ask your coach why your SJHL team lost out on a top end prospect you thought maybe would of signed with your team... He will tell you because the team he went to had more scholarships... If it was based on wins kids would be flocking to the SJHL... The league has to do a better job of getting kids scholarships or the trend will continue.. Ask your coach what the main question parents ask when recruiting there son.. How many kids from your program moved on to the next level? What's my kids chances of getting a scholarship? Why would Ryland Pashovitz leave such a winning organization in Humboldt and go to Des Moines Buccaneers? A team that has only won 4 championships since 1980.. Its because he wanted the best opportunity to get a div1 scholarship.. Why did Luke McColgan go to a team that hadn't made the playoffs the last few yearss, and was a last place team?? Same answer as Pashovitz... He wanted the best opportunity to get a div1 scholarship... What makes players want to go to BCHL? It's not the wins...cause the SJ has that.. It's the number of div1 scholarships they give out each year.. I've said it for years the SJ needs less WHL drop downs and more ncaa eligible players... You still haven't explained how winning is somehow secondary to all of this or how scholarships/recruiting are independent of winning. Do you honestly think most SJHL fans, coaches, players and media types would list "scholarships" before wins/titles/team success when asked to define a good coach? When you initially defined a good coach, there was no mention of scholarships then. But after I called you out for overlooking Hasselberg's failures while implying Beatty wasn't a good coach, you merely looked at Hasselberg's profile and decided that was the definition of a good coach. You understood there has to be some element of team success -- but not too much, otherwise Cassan, Brockman and Beatty outshine your guy. So that's when this magical formula of playoff appearances and scholarships was born. Now you've become the champion of scholarships and "moving kids on". But you were whistling a completely different tune last year. Last May, you said this on this forum's "Western Canada Cup" thread: "Funny how the BCHL and AJHL, did not finish 1st and second... They are not better leagues." Later that month in the "RBC 2014" thread you said this: "So Saskatchewan wins the National championship in midget AAA hockey and now the National champions in Junior A hockey... I'm hoping Saskatchewan will get more recognition. Ive said it for years the SJHL is the best junior league in Canada..." So I ask you . . . if winning is truly "secondary to moving kids on", how is the SJHL a better league than the AJHL or BCHL when we get decimated year after year by those two leagues in NCAA Div. I scholarships?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2015 0:22:56 GMT -6
I completely agree with you guys lets face it the SJ is not a "developmental" league... And maybe we gotta embrace that..... Saskatchewan is made up of hard nose kids that want to win.... And honestly not all those kids look for scholarships lets face it most SJ players want to have fun, maybe party a bit, but most of them want to win... I know quite a few people that simply just don't want a scholarship that's not there focus point some want to work, stay on the farm etc. that's not a bad thing but for some that's not there goal maybe that's the reason BC has 105 commited players because that's the "Sole" purpose.... Facts are facts.... But maybe we just gotta make the best of it and to me if I was a scout I would want winners and sask seems to do quite a bit of that.
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Post by stars123 on Mar 31, 2015 7:31:58 GMT -6
If players have no desire to move on to the next level, why are they playing Junior A hockey? They should be playing Junior B, where they can work at a job and for fun play competitive hockey.. I did say that stuff.. It shows what kind of hockey is played in Saskatchewan, very competitive with BCHL and AJHL.. It is the best league in Canada... I'm done with this topic as someone said previously it could go on forever.. I'll leave it with this... With Yorkton winning the RBC did that attract all kinds of top notch kids??? They didn't even make the playoffs...
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Post by boomer66 on Mar 31, 2015 8:16:23 GMT -6
The reason players play Jr A even though they have no interest in moving on to higher levels, is so they can play at the highest level possible at that time. After several years of playing at a high level some of the players realize it is time to move on and get a job and start life after hockey. Everyone on this forum wants quality hockey, but what would they think if the league was full of Jr B players because kids that do not want to move on to a higher level goes to the jungle to displace players in that league. People need to realize you can't have it both ways.
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Post by backcheck on Mar 31, 2015 10:14:29 GMT -6
I think people are really underestimating how many players in the SJHL would really like to move on to NCAA D1. Most that haven't blown their amateur eligibility haven't because they wanted to keep the NCAA door open. The SJHL is really great at developing real hockey players but is really weak at promoting kids to NCAA Div 1. If the remaining 4 teams each had 4 or 5 Div 1 commits it would certainly make it easier for those teams, and the entire league, to recruit players for next season. More Div 1 commits lead to better recruiting, better hockey, and greater opportunity for all. As a player it is a huge blow to your scholarship opportunity if you get traded from the BC or AJ to the SJ even though most would argue the SJ hockey is better.
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Post by sjhldad on Mar 31, 2015 12:13:18 GMT -6
I am a parent of a junior A hockey player and from what my son tells me most of the players on his team would like to be recruited by an NCAA team. They can then continue their education and still play the game they love. The problem with the SJHL is its isolation. Most NCAA teams do not have a large budget to travel and recruit. Saskatchewan's teams are very isolated from major airports in general and the teams are to spread out. You can get to the AJHL or the BCHL and see multiple teams in one road trip. The BCHL is also another animal. Most BCHL teams have imports on their roster that have been placed there by Div 1 colleges. They recruit some high school kid who is not ready for Div 1 so they play a year or so in BC. In return the BCHL teams receive cash(I ve heard 5k is an average) and a decent hockey player and they form a relationship with a school that now recruits from their team and it becomes a selling point for local recruits. There is no doubt that the BCHL is the league to play in as a young hockey player, however, very hard to crack the line up because of the imports. What is great about the SJHL is that they are supported by the locals and they do support the local minor hockey kids. What is the answer? The league must try to make it easier for the Div 1 schools to see the Sj's players and promote the league as a premier league for the players to play in. Having Yorkton win the RBC cup helps and seeing RIT recruit and win their playoff game with two SJ kids on the backend will help. If you have the talent thy will find you but there are many kids that could play a higher level of hockey but they just do not get exposed.
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Post by hockeygawd on Mar 31, 2015 13:43:02 GMT -6
I also know that about ten years ago AAA coaches were taking kick backs to send kids to bc, not sure if that's still ongoing. I had one admit it to me. Lets not forget about the weather either in regards to scouts. Hmmm +15 in Victoria or -40 in Flin Flon. Most of these scouts don't know what winter is!
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Post by left4deadinflfl on Mar 31, 2015 13:53:30 GMT -6
Yes SJHLdad, its a development league in a bad location, the league develops players, refs (some might argue that) coaches, GM's and trainers. Geography does hurt. I have no answers, I can only see the problem.. I believe the SJ is a great league, some truly great teams and I believe the SJ Champs will have a good shot to win it all again this year but promoting the league via scholarships in NCAA dv1 programs is folly IMO....given the talent pool the USA has to draw from....these JR A programs in the states 'are" feeding the NCAA ranks...soon they will not want any Canadian kids. I am of the opinion we have to retool our Jr A/college relationship. Send Canadian players to Canadian hockey college programs. We do it with the WHL....how can we do it with Jr A...I don't know....but it makes far more sense to me. But most of you have heard this rant before L4D
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Post by stars123 on Aug 28, 2015 19:00:14 GMT -6
As teams start training camps, I'd like to hit on this topic again.... I was laughed at when I said that NCAA scholarships recruit players over winning a championship. Well melfort won the championship this year and have lost at least 2 potential big time new recruits. Jimmy Lambert and Reed Gunville. Both have gone to the BCHL.. Had melfort given out a couple of NCAA div1 scholarships, would Gunville and Lambert of signed in the SJHL?? Estevan is hosting the 2016 WCC, and they lost out on 1 of the top defencemen in Saskatchewan in Tesarowski, he to went to the BCHL.. A very good chance to go to a national championship and he chose else where.. If Estevan had more Div1 scholarships would he of stayed??
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Post by sjhldad on Aug 28, 2015 22:47:40 GMT -6
I have seen this over and over again, Junior A players want to play Div 1 hockey and they will go to the league or program that gives them that opportunity. The BCHL is the best league that has proven to do this for the last decade. Playing CIS is not as compelling for these kids because they must compete against CHL players who have money scholarships from their CHL teams and most CIS programs see a CHL player as a better and higher prospect. Div 1 hockey allows the late bloomer, that has played Junior A, the opportunity to play a higher level of hockey, an education and an outside shot at a professional contract in Europe or North America. I see that a small step has been taken by the SJHL to have a showcase that has teams playing regular season games against each other, however, what a brutal job of scheduling these games. Whose brainchild was it to play afternoon games on weekdays? Lets make sure no fans show up to these games at all at a neutral cite. Warman is a decent venue for the scouts ( Saskatoon airport) but what about the fans? If it creates some scholly's than great but I believe they will be back at the drawing board next year for the showcase format again. BCHL, AJHL incorporate a weekend event format at a home arena and draw the attention of the scouts and the fans as well. If you want to keep the top local talent to stay at home and play in the SJHL then there must be better opportunities to catch the attention of those who make those decisions. It must be done in September or early October because most of the scouting is done by Div 1 assistant coaches before they are back coaching their own programs by mid October. Pay for their flights, get a sponsor to pay for their rooms (Canalta hotels ?) and make it a stop in their calendar that they cannot resist. Once the scholarships start being offered ( If you build it they will come) the league will keep the local boys home.
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Post by stupendousman on Aug 31, 2015 14:24:43 GMT -6
As teams start training camps, I'd like to hit on this topic again.... I was laughed at when I said that NCAA scholarships recruit players over winning a championship. Well melfort won the championship this year and have lost at least 2 potential big time new recruits. Jimmy Lambert and Reed Gunville. Both have gone to the BCHL.. Had melfort given out a couple of NCAA div1 scholarships, would Gunville and Lambert of signed in the SJHL?? Estevan is hosting the 2016 WCC, and they lost out on 1 of the top defencemen in Saskatchewan in Tesarowski, he to went to the BCHL.. A very good chance to go to a national championship and he chose else where.. If Estevan had more Div1 scholarships would he of stayed?? You weren't "laughed at" for saying scholarships recruit players over winning. You WERE laughed at for saying winning was secondary to securing kids scholarships. You seem to be making an argument that SJHL teams need to move kids onto NCAA hockey so they can land more players to send to the NCAA. The point is that the clubs and leagues that are actively doing this are trying to increase their chances of winning. The BCHL decided years ago that if they could deliver more opportunity to top prospects (with less 20-year-olds around) then the quality of young talent they could attract would more than offset what they were losing from their rosters in experience. Teams like Penticton and Vernon are great examples of this. They are often more than a match for the other top Junior A teams in the country despite deciding to go young. Securing scholarships for your players doesn't have to be at the EXPENSE of winning; rather, these teams have shown it is a MEANS to winning. The other point I want to make here is that if I were a scout, I would think twice about a player in a feature role of a losing or middle-of-the-pack team. I would want to know if this player can be an integral part of a winner that goes deep into the playoffs. Now, it is possible that some Junior A teams have decided that having high-profile names go through their program is as important, or even more important, than winning. Call it the prestige factor. But I would argue that mainly applies to players who eventually make it to the NHL, something that would matter to the average fan in that market. Consistently sending players to the NCAA gives you more "bullets in the chamber" to accomplish this, but so does graduating players to the WHL. If that's the argument you're trying to make, that your team is a "factory" of future NHLers, then that could be sold as a primary goal in your market if your team is having trouble earning the things that usually matter to fans (wins, championships, . . . etc.). But this is a results-oriented business, and your team better be delivering on that if it's not getting wins or titles in the process.
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Post by left4deadinflfl on Aug 31, 2015 14:51:15 GMT -6
It isn't an either or proposition...winning vs sending kids to NCAA div 1. Is it nice to win the SJ...I don't remember what it was like to win as it was in 92 last time. On the other hand I cant remember all the kids that Reagan sent to Div 1, there has been a few. But nobody ever stood up and did the wave when a kid got a fat scholly. The arena did not have about 3000 in it to see kids who where goin to Div 1. I think you get my point...the fans like a league winner...and if a kid gets a Div 1 out of the deal...its a consolation prize for the fans, maybe not so much for the player. L4D
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Post by Statman on Aug 31, 2015 15:25:10 GMT -6
Well lets continue to beat this dead horse. In 2010 approximately 100 scholarships were given out by Div 1 schools in CJHL from 2007 to 2010. www.cjhlhockey.com/view/cjhl/news-848/news_80347Now doing the math, if there are 140 Junior A teams in Canada that is .18 scholarships per team per year. Doing more math, 140 x 20 = 2800 players in Junior A across this country so that means that .8% of the players in Junior A hockey get Div A scholarships every year. I am confused why people and parents are so hung up on Div 1 scholarships, when the facts show there are very few to be awarded. The more interesting fact is how many are offered to Canadian players? It is well known that a large majority of American born players are playing in BC. According to web readings almost half the American born players playing in BC receive Div 1 scholarships. So then that greatly reduces the chances of Canadian born player opportunities to get a scholarship. Its very similar to the junior A vs the Dub debate. Parents think that their kids are going to get drafted only if they play in the Dub. So the 16 and 17 yrs old kids sit on the bench, play 4th line minutes and then lose interest or come back to junior A hockey. By this time they no longer qualify for American Scholarships. How many SJHL players are continuing their education and playing hockey in the CIS or other post secondary divisions in Canada? A lot. This should be part of the benchmark of a successful league. After their careers in hockey, how many players become productive members of society, how many become active members in their communities and how many give back to their communities. Yes wins and championships matter, but making men out of these kids is very important as well. The views of the above post reflect my views and my views only, any other individuals who share the same views are purely coincidental.
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Post by allanmontgomery on Aug 31, 2015 22:34:11 GMT -6
I used to think just getting in the playoffs and maybe winning a few games and sending some players on to college was fine. Until last year. getting a championship, a ring and seeing your team play in may can't be beat. Tossing in some players going off to college after doing that is icing on the cake. I can't see how anyone could get tired of that :-)
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Post by bababooey on Sept 1, 2015 9:03:48 GMT -6
Until the league actually starts giving the players a reason to stay in Saskatchewan this will continue. There is one reason we lose so many guys and that is the scholarships. Tesarowski went to BC for that reason. The league does nothing to promote players to US schools. And by nothing I include the Showcase. That draws next to no scouts and generates very little in the way of scholarships. This league needs a player-centred marketing plan and a full time communications person to carry it out. Look at the site. There is very little in the way of promoting current SJHL players. Faces in the glass is not enough. That is like throwing a pebble into the ocean. If players done't feel they are going to be marketed and promoted, well they are not going to that league. It won't happen overnight but if the league creates a long range plan and sticks to it they would see gains. The coaches have wanted someone to be hired for years but Bill keeps ignoring their requests. That's why we have the mess there is right now. Mike Stackhouse I am sure is an ok guy. But the job he does on the site is dreadful. The articles from Dave Leaderhouse are well done but they almost always focus on guys not in the league or coaches. I get that we have to tout alumni but the focus has to be on the current guys. How the league promotes its players and really, how it markets itself, is embarrassing. The social media presence is underwhelming and often unprofessional. Have another discussion with the media on which Sask WHL team is going to fold. Great image! We have a great league and there are good players that go unnoticed. I know some teams promote better than others but this league at times looks like a collection of Mom and Pop stores and as a fan that is sad. There is so much they could do to improve that side of things but clearly another summer was wasted. Bottom line is this: The SJHL has to give players a reason to want to play here.
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Post by SJfan15 on Sept 1, 2015 9:49:50 GMT -6
Last year I heard from a report that there were like 75+ scouts at the showcase... so I think you are wrong there.
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Post by nofavorites on Sept 1, 2015 10:44:33 GMT -6
I don't think everyone is flocking out of province specifically for a div 1 scholarship. Many of the players are just looking for the opportunity to play and for the most part bc does seem to offer that opportunity. The SJ is known for the most part to be a 19-20 year old league and this makes it difficult for some players to have to ride the bench. Yes the SJ needs to do a better a job in promoting players to colleges down south. That is something that needs to be driven down to the coaches and GM's of each team. There are some who always seem to get players recruited down south and others who do nothing or care to do nothing. If anything needs to be a topic on SJ's AGM agenda. Just my thoughts.
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Post by left4deadinflfl on Sept 1, 2015 12:31:01 GMT -6
Statman: I think your right...!! IMO... L4D
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Post by bababooey on Sept 1, 2015 12:59:01 GMT -6
Last year I heard from a report that there were like 75+ scouts at the showcase... so I think you are wrong there. How many were from Division 1 schools? Lately the Showcase has been the Dub's opportunity to poach players from the SJHL.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 14:37:37 GMT -6
Last year I heard from a report that there were like 75+ scouts at the showcase... so I think you are wrong there. How many were from Division 1 schools? Lately the Showcase has been the Dub's opportunity to poach players from the SJHL. I have no issue with that, it should be all about the players not the league. If a player has the chance to play at a higher level or advance the league is doing it's job
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Post by hawkey92 on Sept 1, 2015 15:35:53 GMT -6
How many were from Division 1 schools? Lately the Showcase has been the Dub's opportunity to poach players from the SJHL. I have no issue with that, it should be all about the players not the league. If a player has the chance to play at a higher level or advance the league is doing it's job that's where it's wrong, The SJ shouldn't be a lower calibre leave per say should be a different option. Ex. BC
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Post by hawkey92 on Sept 1, 2015 15:36:40 GMT -6
I have no issue with that, it should be all about the players not the league. If a player has the chance to play at a higher level or advance the league is doing it's job that's where it goes downhill. The SJ shouldn't be a lower calibre league per say should be a different option. Ex. BC maybe that is part of the problem
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Post by hawkey92 on Sept 1, 2015 15:37:00 GMT -6
that's where it goes downhill. The SJ shouldn't be a lower calibre league per say, it should be a different option. Ex. BC maybe that is part of the problem
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Post by swkot on Sept 1, 2015 18:45:33 GMT -6
Statman brought up some good points. I remember finding a document a few years ago that broke down what leagues the NCAA players were coming from, and their nationalities and other items of interest. I wasn't easy to find but it did shed some light on the way things are.
We can sit here and say the SJHL needs to do more to keep these kids here. The question is what can they do? What can individual teams themselves promise the players? Looking at financials, can the Kindersley Klippers or Weyburn Redwings even guarantee that they are going to have a team two seasons from now? How do these teams do more for the players when it has become the norm for 8 to 10 teams to be in the red on any given season as it is? How does the league wine and dine these scouts with funds that don't exist?
Spend some time visiting the BCHL forum and read some fan perspectives. There are teams in that league that merely exist with little hope because they don't have the bankroll to compete, their fans are thrilled to have .500 seasons occasionally. There has been talk for years about the BCHL's elite teams promising players a lot behind the scenes to bring in the top prospects, and naturally that turns into perennial success. Heck, just look at what we are comparing to in order to gain more perspective. The total attendance numbers from the top four teams in the BCHL is roughly equal to what the entire SJHL attendance is in one season! That's 4 teams versus 12. There are teams based in communities with populations that dwarf the total population of all the SJHL team communities combined. We can pretend like the only comparison needs to be the on ice product, but the plain and simple fact is that's not the case. If anyone has an idea of how to draw elite players out of the southern states to come to our frozen tundra to play in front of 300 fans in La Ronge when they could play in front of 2300 fans in Penticton, a place where even their coldest months have above average highs, let's hear what it is! Heck, browse through some of the BCHL rosters and see for yourself what some of the commitments are. Guys that put up third line type numbers, 19 and 20 year old defensemen that barely register any stats, getting scholarships all because they have the right passport.
The BCHL by and large has absolutely no use for players with WHL aspirations or past WHL experience, those players still need somewhere to play. That's where the SJHL and MJHL come in. We see a lot of movement back and forth every year. It can be frustrating to watch knowing that your best players always have one foot out the door, waiting for a phone call to leave. It is what it is. It is what it always has been. And it is what it probably always will be.
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Post by stupendousman on Sept 1, 2015 19:15:03 GMT -6
Statman brought up some good points. I remember finding a document a few years ago that broke down what leagues the NCAA players were coming from, and their nationalities and other items of interest. I wasn't easy to find but it did shed some light on the way things are. We can sit here and say the SJHL needs to do more to keep these kids here. The question is what can they do? What can individual teams themselves promise the players? Looking at financials, can the Kindersley Klippers or Weyburn Redwings even guarantee that they are going to have a team two seasons from now? How do these teams do more for the players when it has become the norm for 8 to 10 teams to be in the red on any given season as it is? How does the league wine and dine these scouts with funds that don't exist? Spend some time visiting the BCHL forum and read some fan perspectives. There are teams in that league that merely exist with little hope because they don't have the bankroll to compete, their fans are thrilled to have .500 seasons occasionally. There has been talk for years about the BCHL's elite teams promising players a lot behind the scenes to bring in the top prospects, and naturally that turns into perennial success. Heck, just look at what we are comparing to in order to gain more perspective. The total attendance numbers from the top four teams in the BCHL is roughly equal to what the entire SJHL attendance is in one season! That's 4 teams versus 12. There are teams based in communities with populations that dwarf the total population of all the SJHL team communities combined. We can pretend like the only comparison needs to be the on ice product, but the plain and simple fact is that's not the case. If anyone has an idea of how to draw elite players out of the southern states to come to our frozen tundra to play in front of 300 fans in La Ronge when they could play in front of 2300 fans in Penticton, a place where even their coldest months have above average highs, let's hear what it is! Heck, browse through some of the BCHL rosters and see for yourself what some of the commitments are. Guys that put up third line type numbers, 19 and 20 year old defensemen that barely register any stats, getting scholarships all because they have the right passport. The BCHL by and large has absolutely no use for players with WHL aspirations or past WHL experience, those players still need somewhere to play. That's where the SJHL and MJHL come in. We see a lot of movement back and forth every year. It can be frustrating to watch knowing that your best players always have one foot out the door, waiting for a phone call to leave. It is what it is. It is what it always has been. And it is what it probably always will be. Swkot beat me to this. Now that the BCHL has essentially cornered the market, and given the advantages it has to offer (warm weather, larger/more beautiful rinks, larger communities, proven track record of sending players to NCAA Div I schools), there's no chance of undoing the foothold the BCHL has gained with young prospects. The only thing that could possibly change the landscape is if a few teams out there were to be found guilty of offering improper incentives to players. But since there seems to be ZERO enforcement of that policy across the CJHL, that doesn't seem likely. Swkot hit on something I hadn't considered before: the WHL connection. Why not embrace the fact that the SJHL seems to be more of a feeder system to that league than the NCAA? I can live with the fact that my team managed to get a future WHL star, and possibly a future NHLer, to play for them as a 16-year-old. Maybe SJHL teams haven't done enough to sell WHL teams on that idea. Encourage the players to ruin their NCAA eligibility first so that there isn't a trust issue between leagues; so that SJHL teams realize they're just getting loaned these players and not trying to send them to US colleges. Regardless, I think SJHL teams have to be more proactive about keeping Midget-aged players on their rosters, even if it's a bit of a stretch in their first year.
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